It IS possible for an instructor to give dual instruction without
logging (or being) PIC.

In one instance, I did some instrument training in my aero-club's
Grumman Tiger. The instrument instructor I used was not yet checked out
in the aircraft type in the club. So, from a club insurance point of
view, he was unable to be insured as PIC in that aircraft at that time.

I HAD been checked out by another instructor, and on his suggestion, we
agreed that I was the PIC for the entire flight, and that he was
providing instrument instruction.

Dave

wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I can't find a reference for this in the FAR/AIM.
>
> The question, in the context of FAA IR training, is whether
>
> a) I (assume I am legally PIC in the airspace in question) can carry a
> CFII as a mere passenger, and
>
> b) can the instructor take over as an instructor at an agreed point in
> the flight
>
> c) can the instructor revert to being a passenger at an agreed point
> after the training took place
>
> I am sure the answer to a) must be yes - it would be silly otherwise.
> It's b) and c) I am not sure about.
>
> Any response would be very interesting - with references please if
> anyone feels this is illegal.
>

There is nothing in the FAR's that says an instructional flight or flight
instruction must begin and or end on the ground.

If you are legal to operate as PIC and current to carry passengers, your
CFII can obviously just be a passenger. At some time he can also pull out
the foggles and say "here, put these on and we'll do a little IFR "training"
on the way." Then you can pull them off and say "that's enough". Or he may
say, "just leave them on and I'll be your safety pilot, no more grilling and
harping on you." Or any number of scenarios.... "fly me to the practice area
and we'll work on maneuvers"... Just because an instructor is in an
airplane doesn't mean he is acting as an instructor, he may be acting as a
passenger, or as a safety pilot, switching roles as needed. I do believe
that as a professional CFII, he should be alert and ever conscious of the
progress and safety of the flight, willing and able to assist the "student"
if needed.

Jim

wrote:
> The question, in the context of FAA IR training, is whether
>
> a) I (assume I am legally PIC in the airspace in question) can carry a
> CFII as a mere passenger,


You can carry whomever you like as a passenger.



> b) can the instructor take over as an instructor at an agreed point in
> the flight


Yes.


> c) can the instructor revert to being a passenger at an agreed point
> after the training took place


Yes. Instruction officially begins whenever the two of you agree it begins. It
ends when you agree it ends. There is no preset being/end point dictated by
regs. Also, since you brought it up, I don't think this is really all that rare
an occurance.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

Yes. There are CFIs that instruct today who have lost their medical. The
limitation is that the "student" must be currently qualified to act as PIC
for the phase of flight in which the CFI will provide instruction.

wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I can't find a reference for this in the FAR/AIM.
>
> The question, in the context of FAA IR training, is whether
>
> a) I (assume I am legally PIC in the airspace in question) can carry a
> CFII as a mere passenger, and
>
> b) can the instructor take over as an instructor at an agreed point in
> the flight
>
> c) can the instructor revert to being a passenger at an agreed point
> after the training took place
>
> I am sure the answer to a) must be yes - it would be silly otherwise.
> It's b) and c) I am not sure about.
>
> Any response would be very interesting - with references please if
> anyone feels this is illegal.

I once had a ten-second instruction. Nobody logged it.

I was flying around in circles, and the airport owner (CFI) asked if I could
fly him 4.2 miles to another airport. I said sure.

As we were flying over, I thought to myself that this was the first time I
had flown with an instructor, but wasn't receiving instruction.

As I was on the downwind, about to turn base, Gregg reached over and pulled
the power. He said "You just lost your engine - where are you going to
land".

I replied "In those trees - just short of the runway", as I pushed the power
back in.




> wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> I can't find a reference for this in the FAR/AIM.
>
> The question, in the context of FAA IR training, is whether
>
> a) I (assume I am legally PIC in the airspace in question) can carry a
> CFII as a mere passenger, and
>
> b) can the instructor take over as an instructor at an agreed point in
> the flight
>
> c) can the instructor revert to being a passenger at an agreed point
> after the training took place
>
> I am sure the answer to a) must be yes - it would be silly otherwise.
> It's b) and c) I am not sure about.
>
> Any response would be very interesting - with references please if
> anyone feels this is illegal.
>

On 7/12/2005 07:57, Steve Foley wrote:

> I once had a ten-second instruction. Nobody logged it.
>
> I was flying around in circles, and the airport owner (CFI) asked if I could
> fly him 4.2 miles to another airport. I said sure.
>
> As we were flying over, I thought to myself that this was the first time I
> had flown with an instructor, but wasn't receiving instruction.
>
> As I was on the downwind, about to turn base, Gregg reached over and pulled
> the power. He said "You just lost your engine - where are you going to
> land".
>
> I replied "In those trees - just short of the runway", as I pushed the power
> back in.

You should have added "But I'll probably be able to make the runway
once I lighten the load (by pushing him out the door) ;-)

I replied "In those trees - just short of the runway", as I pushed the
power
back in.
************************************************** ************************

My kind of pilot!

denny

The CFI can be giving instruction at one point and not at another
point. I assume you will remain PIC. Its not clear what you want to
accomplish though.
On a practical note, if something goes wrong in that flight, the FAA is
going to come after the CFII regardless of who is PIC.

-Robert, CFI

OK. I'm not with the FAA, nor do I have references for all of these
questions, but I'm going to throw my answers out anyway. (I am a CFI,
commercial land and sea rated pilot who owns an amphibian).

Can a CFII give instrument instruction in a tailwheel aircraft if the
CFII does not have a tailwheel rating?
Answer is yes. And he can even log it. But you can't go on a filed IFR
cross country flight unless one of you has an IFR rating.

Can a CFI give instruction in a Seaplane if he is not Seaplane rated?
Answer, I THINK, is yes, so long as the instruction does not involve
landing on water.
(This one is weirder than you might first think, because an Seaplane
can be considered in a seperate Class seperate from land plane).

Can a pilot who has a complex rating be PIC in an Amphibian if he does
not have a Seaplane rating. (Almost all amphibians are complex).
Yes, so long as he does not land on water.

Can a pilot who owns an amphibian that is no longer capable of landing
on the water get a flight review in the amphibian?
Yes, but it will not include privileges of flight in on water.

Is a pilot who flies an amphibian current for carrying passengers if he
does three landings in his amphibian on a ground runway?
Yes, but he is not current for carrying passengers if it involves water
landings.

Can an CFI instruct without a medical?
Yes, but he cannot be PIC.

Not SURE all my answers are correct and not sure anyone really knows
the answers, but they should be food for thought.

I CFI who is not commercial sea rated cannot give any instruction of
any kind in a sea plane. If you took that all the way, you could argue
that an airplane CFII could give instrument instruction in a helicopter
even though he's never been in one before.

-Robert, CFI (land and sea)

"Doug" wrote

> Can a pilot who owns an amphibian that is no longer capable of landing
> on the water get a flight review in the amphibian?
> Yes, but it will not include privileges of flight in on water.

I think that you missed this one Doug.

(c) Except as provided in paragraphs (d), (e), and (g) of this section, no
person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft unless, since the
beginning of the 24th calendar month before the month in which that pilot
acts as pilot in command, that person has—

(1) Accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot
is rated by an authorized instructor and.....

One Flight Review is good for all aircraft for which the pilot is rated.
There is no requirement for different Classes.
The Flight Review can actually be accomplished in an approved simulator
under certain conditions.
There is a separate requirement for a PIC check for aircraft certificated
for more than one pilot.

Bob Moore

Yes, but the question was could he get his flight review in his
amphibian if the amphibian was incapable of landing on the water. I see
your point though. I guess he could get the flight reveiw in a land
airplane and then still have privileges on his Seaplane rating with no
seaplane demonstration.

As for the instructor giving instruction in a Seaplane, I am not sure
but I think there is an exception for this one. If so it should be in
the FARs.

"Steve Foley" > wrote in
news:GTQAe.3004$1%4.2996@trndny02:

> I once had a ten-second instruction. Nobody logged it.
>
> I was flying around in circles, and the airport owner (CFI) asked if I
> could fly him 4.2 miles to another airport. I said sure.
>
> As we were flying over, I thought to myself that this was the first
> time I had flown with an instructor, but wasn't receiving instruction.
>
> As I was on the downwind, about to turn base, Gregg reached over and
> pulled the power. He said "You just lost your engine - where are you
> going to land".
>
> I replied "In those trees - just short of the runway", as I pushed the
> power back in.
>


It took you 10 seconds to teach him the laws of physics?

Dave S wrote:
> It IS possible for an instructor to give dual instruction without
> logging (or being) PIC.
>
Further, the pilot can log PIC even if the instructor is PIC (as
long as he is the sole manipulator of an aircraft for which he
is rated).

Further, the instructor can log PIC time while giving instruction
regardless of who is actually the PIC.

Doug wrote:

> Can a CFII give instrument instruction in a tailwheel aircraft if the
> CFII does not have a tailwheel rating?

There's no such thing as a tailwheel rating.

> Answer is yes. And he can even log it. But you can't go on a filed IFR
> cross country flight unless one of you has an IFR rating.

The answer is only a qualified yes. Yes, if it's a single engine.
No, if it's a twin.


> Can a pilot who has a complex rating be PIC in an Amphibian if he does
> not have a Seaplane rating. (Almost all amphibians are complex).
> Yes, so long as he does not land on water.

There's no such thing as a complex rating.

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
> Dave S wrote:
>> It IS possible for an instructor to give dual instruction without logging
>> (or being) PIC.
>>
> Further, the pilot can log PIC even if the instructor is PIC (as
> long as he is the sole manipulator of an aircraft for which he
> is rated).
>
> Further, the instructor can log PIC time while giving instruction
> regardless of who is actually the PIC.

Really? Surely you can only have one PIC?

Perhaps it's different over here (UK), but if an instructor and a student
are flying in conditions that fit the student's current licence entitlement,
then as I see it, _either_ the student can log PIC _or_ the instructor can,
but not both. If the conditions exceed that of the student's licence (e.g.
you're in IMC under tuition for your instrument rating) then the instructor
would be PIC and the student "pilot undergoing tuition"). The only situation
I can think of where you could both "almost" be PIC is when you're having a
practical examination, at which point the examiner is P1 and the student "P1
under supervision".

Though I'm sure someone will find a hole in my logic :-)

D.

> Surely you can only have one PIC?
>
> Perhaps it's different over here (UK)

Yes, it's different in the US. We don't speak the King's English. :)

On this side of the pond, PIC has two different meanings depending on
context. In the context of authority, it means "the person who is the
final authority on the conduct of the flight", and there can be only one
of them. However, in the context of loggable time, it means, among
other things, "sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft in which
he is rated", irrespective of who is the final authority on the flight.
In the same breath, it means "person who is the final authority on the
flight, if a copilot is required". This was probably deliberately
arranged by the FAA to entertain pilots who are waiting thunderstorms
out in some FBO far from home.

The long and the short of it, only one person can be "top dog" on the
flight, but several people can put in their logbook that they had HOT
("hands-on time"). We just use the same word for both.

Jose
r.a.misc stripped, as I don't follow the group
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

David Cartwright wrote:
>
> Really? Surely you can only have one PIC?

You are confusing logging PIC time with actually *being* PIC. They are not the
same in the States.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

Peter wrote:
>
> It's different in the UK, as you say. The FAA rules permit two people
> to log "PIC"

actually, more than two can log PIC simultaneously given the
right circumstances :-)

--Sylvain